The CFO as a change agent for Digital Transformation
High-performing organizations have accelerated their digital transformation and leveraged eCommerce solutions to adapt to changing market realities.
But rarely, the CFO is the primary change agent that initiates and drives this change.
At BHG CFO, Jheeva Subramanian, did precisely this.
Learn from Forrester's sr. Analysts Joe Cicman and Amanda LeClair on how Product Experience, Product Information Management and eCommerce go hand in hand.
And from BHG's CFO, Jheeva Subramanian, on how they transformed the organization to be a department store that is data driven and has taken unified commerce to the next level. How they introduced a new eCommerce storefront, incl. integration with Microsoft Dynamics D365 Business Central and LS retail, and build a leading example in Retail.
Watch this webinar to learn:
- Insights from Forrester on how they perceive the current and future markets
- How eCommerce and product information strengthen each other for increased commerce performance
- How BHG approached their biggest eCommerce project to date
- How rich product data drives better product experience resulting in an excellent BHG brand experience
- How Self-Service helps drive business results and increase happy customers
Eric: Welcome to today's webinar. I'm really excited to introduce you to Jheeva Subramanian, who is the CFO at BHG Singapore and he was the change agent for digital transformation at BHG. I know that he has a very exciting, unified e-commerce story.
I am very excited to introduce to you, Jheeva Subramanian, who is the CFO at BHG in Singapore. Welcome Jheeva. Feel free to introduce yourself and talk a little bit about BHG. Sorry, dude, your audio is gone. Or very far away. Maybe. So it's very far away. Interestingly enough, I had that problem with GoTo Webinar just now as well. I just had to flip, basically, from microphone to computer back to whatever you're using, and that, at least for my headset, seemed to help.
Jheeva Subramanian: Okay, let me try that. Any better now?
Eric: Yes, that's a lot better.
Jheeva Subramanian: Oh, okay, great.
Eric: So let's do it again. Let me just start over with you. So thank you Forrester. Great information and point of view on how product data can help drive product experience, and with that it can help drive bottom line results for an e-commerce channel, and as we're talking about that, I'm very excited to now bring in Jheeva Subramanian, who is the CFO as BHG. Jheeva, feel free to introduce yourself and talk a little bit about BHG
Jheeva Subramanian: Thank you Eric. Morning. Thank you for having me on board. Pleasure to share my experience at BHG and what we've been doing. So a bit about BHG. So I joined the BHG team about two and a half years ago. Coming up to three now, so somewhere in mid-2019, and prior to that, I was mainly based in London, and since 2009, I've been in the retail industry and I love retail, so I love the fast pace of retail, I love the people aspect of it, but you've got to be passionate to be in retail because it's quite a challenging industry to be in, especially at BHG at the moment. BHG is a chain of department stores in Singapore and I joined up as part of the new leadership team to transform BHG. As we all know, retail is a very challenging industry and within retail the department store market is hugely challenging. Department stores are quickly becoming irrelevant, and as you can see from globally, from US to even UK and Singapore here, we've had our own Robinsons in Singapore going out of business recently as well, unfortunately.
Jheeva Subramanian: So the need for change within the department store is extremely, extremely important and extremely urgent right now. So we came on board as the new leadership team to get a new strategy in and how we want to transform the current department store. The plan was to start rolling out this strategy in 2020, and the pandemic has had different plans for us. So everything got slightly delayed, but we still went ahead with the strategy amidst the pandemic. As we all know, change is a very difficult aspect by itself, and having to change during the pandemic was hugely challenging for us, especially not having the new team members around us to implement changes and communicate the reason for change of culture and mindset, hugely challenging, but through all that we went ahead with the changes, as I said, a bit more slower than expected. We are quite excited to be in 2021 and gone through almost phase one of our change and getting into phase two. For me personally, it's a very exciting time to be in.
Eric: I think that's an interesting part, right? Because you sent me over your roadmap on how this works, and I think that actually also ties into one of the questions I wanted to ask you, which you already delved into a little bit. So let me share that roadmap that you guys have. I think the interesting part is this also covers the reasons and the roadmap for BHG to invest in e-commerce. So maybe you can talk us through some of these phases.
Jheeva Subramanian: Sure. So essentially, the four phases to what we see as our transformation plan. Firstly, probably important to remind that this is not set in stone as any change and transformation happens, we have to be agile enough to adapt to the changes that's happening, especially in technology where it changes really fast. So keeping an eye on what technology we have today and what's coming up next three years, five years, the plan will change, but as we are today, this is what we started with and the first part of the transformation phase one is we start with people. So a lot of time we talk about digital transformation and people and company. In the midst of this very important aspect of people is part of the change. Quick example of what we're working on and it's a long process is currently organisations are still, to a certain extent, is how we work in a functional organisation. So every department is a silo, so you have a head of department in marketing and finance and we feel that this model doesn't really work. This model was for organisations that were creating products then pushing on consumers to buy and what I call it in our organisation. So you create everything in and push it out for sale.
Jheeva Subramanian: We live in a world where we need to go out and listen to what the consumer wants and then create that within the organisation to fit the market, and that's what I've read as our organisation, and to do that, you need leadership skills in this digital era to be able to not just manage on your functional department, but how do you manage cross-department? How do you get someone from the other team to be part of the project team to create this product for the consumer? So leading someone from another team, another department, is a skill set that a lot of us are learning to have right now, but not all of us have yet. How that's progressed in this whole the digital era, though, building an ecosystem and collaborating with different partners is hugely important, but to do that you need to have good leadership skills on not just managing within your department, cross-department, but external organizations as well. How do you lead a team from another partner organization to get to do the project that you're working on? Where we should go is not just these three aspects, but how do you also lead people irregardless of the geography they're in? So if the best person for this project lives in Denmark, how do I get them to work for me and manage that while I'm sitting in Singapore? So that skill set in addition to the mindset of digital transformation is hugely important, so getting that leadership team first and then driving the change is a very important aspect of transformation.
Jheeva Subramanian: The second part of it is retail. As we have physical stores, we today see, despite the boom in e-commerce, with this year on year growth rate going high, 70 to 80 percent of retail sales still happen in physical stores. So the physical stores are still important in part of what we call the omnichannel offering, but we want to change what we stand for. So no longer are the physical stores a place where you just go to buy a product. It becomes a place where we connect with the consumers, where consumers come and experience the brand, come and experience what the lifestyle is. So we're moving from just a department store selling products to what we want to get to a lifestyle center. So every aspect of your life, we want to try to get involved in, how do we help the consumer embrace their lifestyle? So for an example, when we redid our flagship store, which is across three floors, we're meant to do all three floors, but we started with one floor because of the pandemic. We transformed the beauty floor to more of offering services and lifestyle, and how we did that is we added in a café. So you come and shop and you can also have cakes and tea and coffee, but also on the beauty elements if you come and buy a facial product, we now also have five or six popup cabinets where you can buy a facial product and have a facial service at the same time, so there's more reasons now for you to come to BHG.
Jheeva Subramanian: We also want to do workshops. We teach you how to use certain products or how to get the best out of skincare products that you have. Also health and wellness workshops, and we work with our partners on this, we work with thought leadership on wellness on this and we wanted to do in the stores, but again, the pandemic didn't allow us, so we started experimenting with virtual workshops, which works really well. And now that we're coming back into opening up that industry again, we're all really looking forward to do all these workshops in store. So that's an example of how we're getting more services and more lifestyle into the retail stores. Another example would be if you're selling home appliances, we sell kitchenware, dining ware, instead of just selling them, we are working with a partner to actually do cooking classes with healthy recipes within the department store. So you come for a cooking lesson and then as a result of you spending time in BHG, the consequence of that is you end up shopping it. So that's how we're transforming the physical stores.
Eric: Great, great example on how you can really dive into the experience of shopping, right? Instead of having just a big list of products in front of you, you can experience them and basically tie the consumer, tie the customer, completely to the BHG brand. So that's nice, really nice.
Jheeva Subramanian: Thanks. The other aspect is merchandising, we want to get a bit more differentiation in our merchandising. Most department stores carry other brands. So having a private label is a key. So we started working with young designers who came out of design school, brought them into BHG to design our private label. The reason we did that is one, we want to give the opportunity for the young designers to design something. Because a lot of time coming out of school, you've got to go through internships, you've got to go through training before you see your stuff on the shop floor. Here we give the students the opportunity to do that, and they love it. So we now work with much more younger students, but that's good for us because at the department store, the younger generation tend not to shop at a department store. This way, these designers are not selling to families and friends and chatting on social media, it invites different crowds to us as well.
Jheeva Subramanian: Marketing for us is a lot more on partnership, collaboration, how we build an ecosystem. An example of that is we are building what we call in the last 12 months the BHG ecosystem. So any partner that comes to be a part of the ecosystem benefits in a mutual way, but also, we find benefits between the two companies within the ecosystem and not just for BHG. An example of that would be we actually have five yoga instructors who work freelance for us, and we connect the yoga instructors to our insurance provider who conducts health and wellness events, and these yoga instructors are also our brand ambassador for my athleisure wear. So it's an ecosystem where everybody benefits from each other and we feel that this has huge value to the business as we cover different categories in this ecosystem.
Eric: Creative and smart to really create that BHG world.
Jheeva Subramanian: Correct, yes, that's the plan. Yes. Then next we come to systems. So to do all this, we need a really good backbone system. So unfortunately, when we started at the new leadership team, we realised that the company didn't have any digital presence. So there was no e-commerce channel. There was no unified data. Even lack of social media presence. So there was a lot of work for us to do. Changing systems was very important to us. As we all know, changing systems is a hugely, hugely challenging task. So it took us the last eight to nine months in 2021 to change all our systems, and we just went live early in January. So we are in a period of stabilisation, but very excited to now start using the system to help the business.
Jheeva Subramanian: We also look at supply chain logistics, which is very key for us to do what we want to do. CSR and sustainability are also very important to us. We really started getting into how we can help the Singapore community a lot more, but also environmentally, plastic bags, getting rid of them, getting reusable bags where we sell our reusable bags and we don't profit from it. All of the profit goes to a local charity that we adopted. Last but one of the most important aspects is digital trading. Most of our staff has not had exposure to digital presence because of where the company was. So sending them to digital training skills to upskill them on digital elements, but also what was key was making sure everybody understood why we were doing something. How can the digital elements help the business help them? Because people tend not to like change and especially new technology. So getting them more upskilled and ready for before we introduced these new elements was very important to us.
Jheeva Subramanian: So that was phase one for us. Getting into phase two is is where we just got. We just launched a new system. So in 2020, we got a new e-commerce. 2021 it grew really well, but we started really small on the Shopify platform. But recently, we worked with Dynamicweb to change our whole systems backend to frontend, which also included the e-commerce platform, and we are now really looking forward to push on to that. So the digital elements in phase two is first again. Once we got the backbone in, it's to start now introducing elements to blur the offline and online concepts. One example of that is now that we have this backbone system in, we want to create, for example, virtual stores. So we have a group of consumers that today don't shop with us. So no matter what change we do in the physical stores, they might not discover it. So we are planning to kind of get a 3-D model of our store online and then market it to this group of consumers and also the current existing consumers who can see what the store looks like and what experience BHG is providing and creating awareness for them to hopefully then either shop online or drive them to the store. So we're getting to a unified commerce solution that is a channel agnostic shopping experience. So regardless of where you shop, we want you to discover us for us.
Jheeva Subramanian: We are also working on a concept where one of the issues of shopping online today is you cannot ask questions, and that's what drives people to the physical stores. For example, if you want to buy a beauty product, you have a question for the beauty adviser. So what we're doing is we are going to connect our online channel to the physical store by a click of a button. So when you're shopping online with us looking at either the 3-D store or the online listing, you can click a button which then connects you with our beauty advisers in the store to do a face to face call or a chat through WhatsApp to answer your questions. Because today, answering questions online through the chat box doesn't really work that well, but we want a live human interaction and to enable that what we did last year was got rid of all of the cash counters in the retail stores in our flagship store and introduced mobile POS, so everybody now carries a tablet. So there's two purposes for that, one is to connect this offline-online connection, but also the second purpose is there's no more queues in store. So you don't have to queue to make your payment. You literally pay where you shop. So people are walking around with tablets or every counter is a payment counter because it's very mobile right now. And then we got the introduction of AI and machine learning for the backend, for example, on our CRM and e-commerce platform and get to more, how do we use data for predictive analytics? So for example, Eric, if you use a particular skincare products, a moisturizer, I know in 30 days time that thing runs out, so why on day 28 am I not sending an email saying, "Eric, I think it's running out. Do you want it replenished?"
Eric: Honestly, I don't have that with facial products, but I do have exactly that with coffee and espresso.
Jheeva Subramanian: There you go.
Eric: I buy my espressos basically every four months, and still they don't come back in time with a notification like that. So that would be already great to have.
Jheeva Subramanian: Yes. So those are the examples of how we want to use the technology going forward. So they have to have a lot of these examples. Another great example that we're working on is something called an endless aisle. An endless aisle is, our flagship store is over 300,000 square feet. We can have 300,000 products, 400,000 products in the store. Our smaller stores in the heartland are half the size. But how do we get the consumers from the heartland malls the same array of products that we have in our flagship store? So we put these interactive kiosks in the heartland malls that have virtual aisles of all our products, irrespective of where you shop. So the whole organization's inventory is on the screen. So our real time inventory. So someone walking into our smaller stores can still buy the products. So enabling that is key as well, and to do all this we needed that system working through Dynamicweb to to be implemented.
Eric: I think that that's a really exciting one, right? Because you're still offering the whole product offering that BHG carries off the flag store, you're still offering that via digital in the smaller stores and combine that with the people running around, walking around, with the ability to purchase, I think combined with even chats or FaceTime kind of messaging, it's a great example of how you can really tie the combination of online and offline together.
Jheeva Subramanian: Yes, that's the plan so that what I'm very excited about. Then we get the phase three. So for digital transformation, it's not just about technology, it's not just about going online. Some of the examples of blurring offline online options I've given, but also how do we get to the new business model? How do we get new revenue streams? How do we leverage these technologies and processes that we have to get new revenue streams that today are what a department store probably is not used to having? So one example is most of these technologies. For example, the NSR or we have another one called Live to Learn, and we're also also looking at embedded sensors and how we use it to get to more lifestyle benefits for the consumer. We work with start ups. We work with local R&D departments of big universities to create this retail technology, which we then co-own. So we co-own the IP ownership for these technologies because it solves our retail problem and if it solves our retail problem then it's most likely going to solve other retailers' problems. So we can then sell this technology to other retailers and that's a new source of income, which we are now no longer just a typical department store. So that's an example of how we're trying to evolve the business.
Jheeva Subramanian: So using the platform as a business model, building the ecosystem, building a unique marketplace where different cross industry partners work together with us, it's hugely important to us and embracing IoT. How do you monetize that data? An example I mentioned the the smart sensors in our athleisure apparel. Today, if you're running a smartwatch, most of us do, we get all the health data on our Apple Watch and many times I speak to people, what do you do with this data? Once you see, the answer is money. So what we're trying to do is how do we monetize that data, but also for the consumer and the industry as a whole. So when we finish a project, you wear our athleisure, right, you'll have a smartwatch from our start up companies that we're working with. You get that data, your health data, we will be connecting this data to lift off and adopt, for example. Or if you have your own GP, you add them to the panel. So with your permission, this data is constantly sent to your doctor so you don't have to wait for something to happen and you're making use of the data, your doctor would call you up and go, "Hey, I think your blood pressure is a bit high, come and see me." So it becomes a lot more important for your lifestyle, and this is where we think IoT can play a huge impact in the lives of our consumers, but also help us transform to the new business model. Working with partners in the ecosystem is key because we don't have the expertise in-house and we would not have the resources to build all this just ourselves, and when we get this model right, we then look at replicating this business model outside Singapore and also the ability to grow, to increase our scale and scope becomes a lot more cheap and faster when we leverage this ecosystem and products working with us. But that's the summary, a very long summary, of our road map.
Eric: I think that it's a very interesting plan and transformation, more than digital transformation, I would even say for BHG, investing into creating a BHG world and actually be the spearheading leader of digital retail for retail. I think that that's actually a really exciting element you have right there. So let me ask, and maybe this is a little bit selfish, but also to really dive into some of the e-commerce and the unified e-commerce that I will come back to in a bit probably, what were the must haves and needs for the project, and of course, what landed you on Dynamicweb?
Jheeva Subramanian: The must have and the key factor was having a unified commerce solution, so we feel that this is a step up from what we used to call omni-channel. So the unified commerce centers around the consumer, and all the data is all on one backend. So that gives me a unified view of my inventory and a unified view of our customer journey to enable us to do the example that I talked about. The endless aisle needs a real time, unified view of my inventory. To use the predictive data analytics in the example we gave, you need now a single customer view. So if someone's browsing our online store or shopping offline or just using our CRM tool or even being just part of the ecosystem, how do we understand their shopping habits to provide what they need, but also what they are going to need? So that was the key and probably the big overarching concept of why we needed a unified common solution.
Jheeva Subramanian: In 2020, we spent some time going out to the market trying to find the solution. While there are a lot of claims that unified common solutions are there, it's not actually fitting the description of the concept that we have in mind. So when we stumbled on Dynamicweb, we realized that not only did the Dynamicweb team understand our road map, the one we have and our vision of why we want to do certain things, but the Dynamicweb team that we spoke with were also good in digital marketing, for example, they understood business, they understood retail, they understood not just the techie part of it, but the use cases for it and those things are extremely helpful for us because having a partner not just understanding tech and providing the solutions that we need to fit our vision, but also understanding the business aspect of things was very important. So that's why we ended up with DynamicWeb because we thought it was a real fit to what we were looking for.
Eric: Thank you, and that's really great to hear that we understand the business case next to the technology that's needed to help drive the success of that. A follow up question to that, and maybe also something for your fellow CFOs and stakeholders in e-commerce: How did the project go and what learnings would you have for CFOs and fellow stakeholders in e-commerce?
Jheeva Subramanian: Well, change, like we said, is very hard, but it's needed. This digital transformation in retail is no longer a luxury. E-commerce is no longer a luxury. It's a must have. You have to do it, and to embark on this really difficult journey, one's mindset has to be correct. So get your leadership team in place first. Get the right leadership team in place to understand digital transformation. Because if you don't, it's not that you won't achieve it, you might achieve what you want to do, but it'll just be more costlier with mistakes or it might take longer, and then you are playing catch up again. So get the right leadership team in place and also the mindset of, you have to be all in. What you cannot do is say, "okay, I'm going to dabble in digital transformation and see how it goes." That won't work. So if you want to transform, you have to be all in, fully committed top to bottom. So everyone from your shareholders to your team member who is on the shop floor facing consumers, everybody's got to understand why we're doing it, because then the buying is a lot easier and you have to have that to make it successful. Also, constant communication to every team member, because as a leadership team, you might understand why you're doing it, but if you're not communicating this throughout the organization, that is going to be very, very difficult.
Jheeva Subramanian: Finally, I would say to get small wins. As you can see, this road map will take three to five years. As we humans, we have a vision. We don't see small wins in the next three months, six months, nine months. You don't get them committed for this long, long term period. So getting small wins and showing and celebrating the small wins are key, so people are now buying into it and going, "yes, this is great for me, it does make my life easier, I can see the benefit now," and then they are much more eager to participate in your next transformation plan. So I think those are some of the learnings that we've had while we transformed because we made some mistakes along the way as well, but these are what I thought are the key points that if you get them right it makes your life a bit easier for you to transform.
Eric: I do think that because some of these projects, or at least parts of the projects can actually be delivered relatively quickly, it is important to have a roadmap like this and to have, as you say, to have those smaller milestones in place and wins, because otherwise a three year plan is already ages, right? You've been on board for three years, you already accomplished this under far from less than ideal circumstances in the last two years. So even undertaking a project and a vision like this is honestly leading in the retail environment, and the ability to also start delivering on that. Because painting that vision, I wouldn't say it's the easy part, but the operational part is surely where the real challenges start appearing, I can imagine. So with this new technology in place, you as a CFO, how has it started to help control? I know you've gone live very recently.
Jheeva Subramanian: Yes. So the last month, this month, it's more of a stabilization process, getting the small kinks and bugs out of the way before we start really experimenting on what we want to do here. What we've seen is now that the data is all into one place, it's a lot easier for us to plan on what we want to do. For example, we are now onboarding an AI-based CRM software that gives you a personalized email, customized landing pages for an e-commerce website, and we couldn't have done that without this backbone system. So once now that we have this in place, these wins are what we're looking forward to. So the control of inventory, being able to see the customer journey in one view, all of the data collected in one backend gives us a lot of possibilities. The team are getting used to it. So having this is one, but how are you going to start using the data is now a lot more important. So now the next couple of months we'll be focusing on, how do we get the best out of this system? How do we start using it to fit into the vision that we have? It's a very exciting time for us. So most of the hard work is done and now hopefully I think the fun stuff begins. Somehow it's not easy.
Eric: I assume so, and I think that that's a very nice jump because I think you've kind of actually answered it already, is the expectations you now have now you have been able to go live, but it's all about the fun part, right? It's driving the data into actionable insights. Maybe one related element I would like to ask as well, because I think that this is what a lot of organizations have to do as well. For a unified commerce story, yes there is Dynamicweb, but I'm also sure there are other systems in place that you, as a CFO, use. ERP systems, ERP related systems. Briefly paint a picture of what kind of integrated related technology you guys use.
Jheeva Subramanian: Sure. So my idea of what I was looking for and couldn't find is one system that caters for everything. That isn't available yet. So what we've done is, most of our backend system is off Microsoft 365 and our POS partner is LS Retail. So we've kept this relatively small as I didn't want too many systems talking to each other, so almost one backend. So with this and with Dynamicweb enabling all of this, that's the three systems that we're using, so we don't use any other systems or anything else. This ERP and Microsoft 365. Even the finance function is on Navision, which is a Microsoft product.
Eric: I think that that combination, because that's something we see because we are close to Microsoft like that, with Microsoft 365 Dynamics combined with LS Retail, which then lifts into the Microsoft Dynamics environment, you can build systems and worlds like this that can help drive that kind of real time, or real time-ish, insights for CFOs like yourself, but also other commercially minded people so that is really exciting. I don't think I have any further questions. Would there be anything else you would like to share?
Jheeva Subramanian: Well, I mean, the other learning I probably had was, we will make mistakes along this road, but it's also key to get validated learning. So a lot of time people say, "it's okay to make mistakes, but you learn from it," but that's actually a very important aspect, to actually get validated learnings from your mistakes. Very important for you to do the right thing the next time. Not just do something, make a mistake, say "yeah, okay, that didn't work," but why didn't it really work? So that's a very important aspect, and sometimes it becomes very difficult to do that and people tend to start ignoring it, but it's very important to keep us on track to where we want to go. Apart from that, I think I just want to probably also thank the Dynamicweb team for making this happen. So making the theory of strategy in theory come to life. So I'm now really looking forward to this year to implement it.
Eric: I think that that's a perfect thing to end this talk on. Thank you very much, Jheeva, I do look forward to some of the near future activities, hopefully that we can undertake together because, again, this sounds and feels and looks like a leading example on what retail can achieve by unifying on and offline and creating a world like BHG is creating. So thank you very much for this time and I look forward to our next talk.
Jheeva Subramanian: Thank you, Eric. Pleasure to be here. Have a good day.
Eric: Thanks. That's it! Cool. Good connection, good story. Feel free to drop off, just because of the live aspect I will just do an intro to the whole webinar again and then a quick outro, kind of talk Dynamicweb, we're everywhere, blah blah blah. Thank you very much, talk to you soon. Thanks, Jheeva. Honestly, I think I continue to believe it's such an interesting story that you guys have, bringing and building that BHG world, the ability to have unified e-commerce, bringing on and offline so close together and making sure that customers experience the BHG brand, the individual brands that you guys carry, as well as the ability to have the same kind of ability to experience products or to at least purchase products in smaller stores that the flagship store is carrying. I think it's a leading approach to doing retail combined with department stores, but probably retail period.
Eric: I also want to tie into, and then we'll bring this webinar to an end, I want to tie into what you said about as few systems as possible, because that is what Dynamicweb is really about. We are there to reduce e-commerce complexity, and we do that by offering that one e-commerce suite, that one platform that carries a CMS for your website, an e-commerce solution, a product information management solution and a marketing solution to build that relationship with the customers, loyalty programs, abandoned shopping cart emails, you name it, and we offer that in one single solution. So you have one backend, individual solutions. You don't need to use them all, but you can, and that it also means it's one integration into your ERP system. If you would go the other way, and that is something that is a choice an organization can make, is building a Franken stack of point solutions, coming with an individual best of breed approach, which means you need to find and implement a PIM system, a CMS system, an e-commerce system, a marketing system, and all these things need to be integrated into each other. In our experience and what we see in the market, that drives complexity, that drives frustration, delays time to market, and integrations do break, because if one of these solutions is updating, it might actually break the connection, and you have to quickly go into this again, which is after losing uptime, it is losing the ability to sell and that is something you then have to go to your stakeholders to share that something doesn't work again.
Eric: So on that, Dynamicweb, we're a bit over 20 years old, we are globally situated, we have over 200 colleagues over the world, we have international implementation partners that can help drive implementations like BHG today, we have over 4000 customers globally, and overall, we have a very exciting customer base and partner base. So, exciting times. On that, I would like to wrap up. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to reach out to me personally or go to Dynamicweb.com. We are happy to route any questions to the right person. So with that, I would like to thank you for your time and I look forward to our next webinar and connection.